Concrete ring trig points and a Wainwright error?

General discussion about trigpoints, the TrigpointingUK website etc

Re: Concrete ring trig points and a Wainwright error?

Postby ted » Sun Jul 23, 2017 4:48 pm

sphinx2,

I got the impression from my contact at OS that such records about TPs, etc, could be loose papers in boxes,
rather than everything in tidy files! I suspect a visit would be essential


Living in the far north (well OK, Yorkshire) visiting Kew would be somewhat expensive for me.
However, I've used the Arcre document copying service (see above for link) on a
number of occasions and have found them to be prompt and with fair value for money.
You are right in that the papers are in no particular order within an OS station record,
and sometimes papers from another station get mixed in, but its not a real issue.
Each station record includes at least one sketch which is the most important item
from a trig-hunting perspective. Also, theres often correspondence giving insight into
the planning and construction of (what was then) a new trig.

Painterman61,

the curry stools are interesting as well to yet to visit a lot of these


A list can be obtained via the advanced search feature in TrigpointingUK, equivalent
to this link: http://trigpointing.uk/trigs/view-trigs.php?q=2065935
But after the three Curry Stools in the Pennines, its a long way to the next nearest :)

I noticed most of these rings seem to be in the Cumbria area


I'm indebted Graeme Paterson (Clochandighter) who, some years ago, spotted a pattern
in the Pennine/Lakes Concrete Rings. With the exception of Blencathra, all are in
Secondary Block NY71 and have similar dates in the OSGB36 records. On that basis,
Millstone Rigg http://trigpointing.uk/trig/16545 fits the pattern so could be
another Concrete Ring but it has yet to be found; might need a spade and/or a metal detector I think.

- Ted
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Re: Concrete ring trig points and a Wainwright error?

Postby sphinx2 » Sun Jul 23, 2017 5:22 pm

to Painterman61,

Yorkshire - God's Own Country - used to live in Nidderdale when the OS surveyors were busy - a long time ago.

By all means give me a call to discuss overlapping interests, Doug
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Re: Concrete ring trig points and a Wainwright error?

Postby Painterman61 » Mon Jul 24, 2017 8:07 pm

Hello again many interesting points here have been raised been thinking for a while now of buying a full on proper metal detector to help me find the many yet undiscovered blocks in my area.I believe that brass or copper gives as good a signal as gold! It's just finding the time to do it
Kind Regards
David
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Re: Concrete ring trig points and a Wainwright error?

Postby ted » Tue Jul 25, 2017 5:34 pm

been thinking for a while now of buying a full on proper
metal detector to help me find the many yet undiscovered blocks in my area.


Definitely worth a try. Maybe start by 'detecting' a block that you've previously
found so as to get an idea of how close you need to be to the mark before getting
a signal.

Have never tried one of these gadgets but it seems to me that block hunting differs
from conventional metal-detecting in two respects:
- we know the target location to within the accuracy of a hand-held GPS, so
the search area is typically only a few square metres - more than enough when
probing with a screwdriver :)
- the amount of metal in a typical rod, rivet or bolt is probably smaller, maybe
below the threshold that would trigger the detector?

This suggests that a small (hand-sized) detector, moved slowly over the area of interest,
would be more manouevrable than a conventional detector. It would also be
a lot easier to carry if you need to walk any distance to the location.
I've no idea if such a device exists.

I forget where I read it but apparently the OS would sometimes bury some scrap
metal with the block to aid relocation with a detector. The only one I've found
like this is TP17481 Long Hill http://trigpointing.uk/trig/17481

See also mickandshanes's 2005 log for Blencathra http://trigpointing.uk/trig/7306
where they refer to a phosphor-bronze ring within the concrete ring.


Good luck!



Ted
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Re: Concrete ring trig points and a Wainwright error?

Postby ted » Wed Sep 06, 2017 7:54 am

Congrats to Roger Templeman and Jon Glew for establishing that
Millstone Ring http://trigpointing.uk/trig/16545 is
indeed another Concrete Ring
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Re: Concrete ring trig points and a Wainwright error?

Postby Painterman61 » Wed Sep 06, 2017 11:36 am

Hello all just noticed that Millstone Rigg a concrete ring station has been unearthed near nine standards rigg in Cumbria by top trigpointer John Glew and benchmark guru Roger Templeman.Every credit to these two who put in a hard shift finding and digging it out.Just as Ted predicted it would be found eventually going out to bag this one at the weekend before i go on trip to alps doing the haute route.
Kind regards
David Phillips
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Re: Concrete ring trig points and a Wainwright error?

Postby sphinx2 » Wed Sep 06, 2017 3:29 pm

Thanks for yet more useful information. I have looked at the Arcre website, and although biased towards wartime histories, could well save some leg work!
Do you (or anyone else) have the TNA references for the trig point boxes. This could save some time.
Best wishes, Sphinx2
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Re: Concrete ring trig points and a Wainwright error?

Postby ted » Wed Sep 06, 2017 5:35 pm

Arcre website, and although biased towards wartime histories


As I understand it, Arcre is a one-man outfit; the owner researches military
history and makes extensive use of the archives at Kew. For a small fee, he
is happy to access other documents such as the OS records, make a photographic
copy and then make these available for download. But Arcre isn't a part of TNA.


TNA references for the trig point boxes


From the TNA home page, http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/
you could try typing the trig station name directly into the search window.
I tried these: Rombalds Moor, Strutforth Hill, Scott Hall, Round Hill
The first two searches found few documents so it was easy to scroll down and
pick out the trig references. The latter two, being more common terms, found
many more matches. But by adding the word 'triangulation' to the search phrase
the results list is manageable again.

Incidentally, I note that the web site now has a check box associated with
the search facility named 'Available to download from The National Archives'.
So I tried this with the search word 'triangulation'. Result: 0 records :)


Regards
Ted
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Re: Concrete ring trig points and a Wainwright error?

Postby sphinx2 » Wed Sep 06, 2017 5:58 pm

Dear Ted, thanks for that additional information. I am 30 miles from Kew and it is tempting to go again, sometime...
Regards, Sphinx2
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Re: Concrete ring trig points and a Wainwright error?

Postby ted » Fri Sep 08, 2017 1:16 pm

Where will the next Concrete Ring be found?

Here are two possibilities that the Spade Brigade might want to consider.
Both are in Secondary Block NY71 and the Computing Date is similar to the
other Pennine/Lakes rings that have so far been located

Heughscar Hill http://trigpointing.uk/trig/8362
NY71 T011 HEUGHSCAR HILL 0 BLOCK Ht to bolt in block
3 2 N NY71 1961 1984 1961 375.208 348796.844 523161.25

Hart Hill http://trigpointing.uk/trig/16544
NY71 T015 HART HILL 0 BURIED BLOCK Ht to bolt in block
3 2 N NY71 1961 1984 1961 662.94 345928.25 518341.719
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